It's old news for the remnant of New Zealand's Worldwide Church of God, but the denominational name here finally changed in July last year to Grace Communion International (the US church took that step in 2009). The web address is now
www.gci.org.nz.
Officials and citizens of New Zealand should investigate if this cult is transferring collected monies to its United States headquarters and specifically into the hands of the Tkach family and other ruling elites of the cult which, when last checked, does not publish details of the wealth of the Tkach family and other highest compensated executives.
ReplyDeleteHmmm... 6 figures in California does not constitute "high compensation". The "wealth of the Tkach family"?? Yes, they drove an old station wagon for decades...
ReplyDeleteTrue, the Tkach family is not wealthy. Still, a six-figure income is much more than Joe Tkach Jr. would have ever made in the real world. Good thing for him that he inherited a church from his Daddy. A church with lots of assets that were purchased by well-meaning people with beliefs exactly opposite to those of Mr. Tkach. As Woody Guthrie sung, "some men steal with a gun, some with a fountain pen". The Tkachs stole our assets with a fountain pen.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't just steal our assets; they also stole our church and ran it into the ground. That part hurt even worse. What's left of WCG/GCI could never pay even Mr. Tkach's low-six-figure income. No, that's mostly being paid by the remaining funds from the assets purchased by our pre-1986 tithes. I agree, that's not high compensation for California. But it's high compensation for a man of Tkach's caliber.
"the Tkach family is not wealthy"
DeleteWhy? Because they say so? - sans patent accounting?
"the Tkach family is not wealthy"
DeleteMinimalist, I retract that assertion.
Based on Joe Tkach's reported compensation of approximately $120,000 per year, I concluded he must not be wealthy. But on further reflection, with the church most likely paying for his house, car and most of his food, Joe has likely been able to save and invest most of that $120,000. Multiply that by 20+ years and it adds up to 2-3 million. Plus, who knows, he may have been able to "move" additional assets to his own account. He may indeed be somewhat wealthy.
There are also people who are adept at concealing wealth, rather than being conspicuous with it. The wealth becomes like a hidden safety net rather than something in which you revel. An old station wagon is not necessarily the best indicator of one's financial status. It could be part of an elaborate anti-facade.
DeleteI don't know how it is globally, but at least in the US, financial realities can be concealed by churches and ministries. In a sense, it is almost better when some of these people make their own nature obvious with their mansions, expensive works of art, jets, clothing, and limos, because then you can see them for who they are.
By the way, who wrote the book for these later day televangelists with their opulent lifestyles? Those who pioneered the stereotype! I certainly don't believe that HWA's early example was lost to this field. He may not have been the very first prominent example, but the World Tomorrow broadcast was highly visible during the 1950s and '60s. Back then, most people didn't even know how to pronounce the word "tithing", but the practice has virtually overtaken mainstream Christianity today.
BB
It's hard to know who to root for. Herbert Armstrong committed incest with his daughter for 10 years while he began his ministry and then the Tkaches stole the WCG after he died, laying up for themselves treasures on earth, taking the money and running, keeping only the oppressive top heavy "government" of the world begun by Herb.
ReplyDeleteI guess in this scenario, the only ones to root for are the ones who left.
People who once suffered from a mental illness really are not equipped to treat or cure that mental illness. Armstrongism is and was a disease of the mind. The best way all of this could have been handled would have been to bring in a team of outside people with years of experience in teaching the corrected gospel. Loving counselling should have been used rather than the same old "my way or the highway" force that had always been employed to manipulate behavior in the original diseased church. Many of the members, who believed they had "proven" the original doctrines by reading the church literature and proof texts may have responded to loving counsel over a period of time. There might ultimately even have been unity, rather than the constant splintering if proper Christian methods had been employed.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, there was no real precedent to be followed. This type of change took everyone into uncharted territory. And, just imagine being a minister who might have even questioned some of the abuses of the past, but suddenly realized that there was no real market for his current skills or doctrinal approach so long as there were others who had had literally decades' experience in teaching the new material, and administering congregations based on grace rather than legalism. There were a lot of vested interests pulling people in dramatically opposing directions! Very little unity!
The important element to remember is that from the beginning, this was a scam, starting with William Miller. The only thing that kept it going during part of the twentieth century so long as it did was the explosive temper of HWA. The only factor which could possibly have changed the final outcome would have been the maintenance and cultivation of the illusion of GTA as loyal successor. Thank God that didn't happen. It would probably have delayed the Gamaliel syndrome for decades!
BB
Bob makes several good points. The Tkach's "my way or the highway" approach was harsh, and ham-handed in the extreme. Not to mention self-serving. Still, they did us a favor. They caused many of us to open our eyes. A smooth transition from HWA to Garner Ted would have meant most of us staying in the cult for another 20 years. Ugh. On balance, I guess we should be thankful that Joe Tkach threw some cold water in our faces.
DeleteThe best of all worlds would have been if Armstrong were committed to prison for incest and killed by the other prisoners in the 1930s.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, one sick pervert created a world of hurt from which we all have to deal with in our own ways without much real help.
The bad part is? We were stupid enough to fall for it! Never again, I say.
DeleteIt's really as simple as realizing that since you don't know WHAT a "God" IS - neither does anyone else - never have, never will. But, as long as a person believes in gods, angels, demons, witches and other magical things - they are always in danger of being fooled again.
So Joe wouldn't be able to make a 6-figure income in the "real world"? Hmmm. I am guessing that none of you even knows what it takes to make a 6-figure income.
ReplyDeleteA 6 figure income takes in a lot of territory - it could be $100,000 or it could be $999,999 - you need to be more specific.
DeleteYes, Larry, we're all quite ignorant. Except for you.
DeleteFYI, for many years during my long career I was a department comptroller in a multi-billion dollar company whose name you would instantly recognize. The top managers in my organization had seven-figure compensation. All of the professionals except the new hires were in the six-figure range. So, I'm not the dope you assume I am; I know very well what kind of person it takes to make a six-figure income.
Joe Tkach Jr., before HWA bequeathed the church to his daddy, was a man around 40 years of age who was working as a factory foreman. He was surely making well below six figures. What were the chances his compensation would rise much higher? With manufacturing jobs moving out of the USA in the 1990's, most factory foreman took compensation cuts, not raises. That's if they were able to keep their jobs at all.
Nothing in Joe Jr.'s career before WCG implies great success. After taking over WCG/CGI, he has taken it on a long downhill slide. Those are the facts on which I base my opinion.
OK, Mr. Know-It-All, on what do you base your opinion? Please tell us how Joe Jr. has what it takes to make a 6-figure income.
I do know what it takes to make a 6 figure income. Education, hard work, a lot of anxiety, some influential godfather types, and some luck thrown in for good measure just begins to describe it. When you meet someone who has reached this level of compensation, you know that they made a number of sacrifices that most people would not be willing to make.
DeleteAlthough I knew him as a teenager, I can't pass judgment on Joe's abilities in this area. I believe in those days, like some of my high school buddies, Joe might have been covering up his intelligence by being somewhat of a wiseguy and juvenile delinquent. I thought he was headed for quite a bit of trouble, as a matter of fact. But, some of my high school buddies were late bloomers, becoming doctors, business owners, and such. The ones who had successful dads generally became successful themselves.
Joe did some things that made me respect him more. He did cut the ties. He did work in the secular world. And he did pursue higher education. In other words, he managed to have some experiences from a non-entitled perspective, which is something most of the minister's kids and many Ambassador College students know nothing about. At one time, the Intel facility where Joe worked had been one of my customers, although this was years after Joe had returned to Pasadena. Most of the employees there were paid modest salaries. There were various levels of management, and most likely some fairly high on the food chain that were up into the six figures. Was Joe one of these, and did he accept a lesser salary when he returned to WCG? I don't know precisely what his job description was. Many of the top ministers in WCG bragged about how much they had given up for God while I was there. It was almost a ministerial cliche.
Basically, we've got an information gap here, where critical facts are missing. We gave tithes, there were tangible assets paid for by those tithes, and we have no accounting for their disposal when they dissipated on Joe's watch, if in fact they did dissipate and are not in some numbered offshore account. Joe is probably the easiest target within our former world. Until more facts are available and in the open (and its possible they might never be) it's really difficult to make any kind of judgment call. To me, he is the one with the answers, and it'd be nice if he shared them.
BB
But Bob, it's not just Joe Jr. What religious leader has ever shared information regarding finances or government? They have the money and the power: we don't. And you can be sure they will do everything possible to keep it that way.
DeleteTo a large extent, Skeptic, you are right. However, there are some voluntary watchdog agencies which oversee both secular and religious charities, monitoring the actual percentages of donations which make it to their stated targets, noting unacceptable levels of loading costs due to extravagance amongst administrators, and in general, promoting both transparency and accountability. The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability is one such organization, but the problem is that many of the televangelist ministries will not submit to the review of such agencies. Years ago, a lady on a forum posted that in COGdom, Ron and Allie Dart were the only ones known to subscribe to this type of review, and had I believe a four or five star rating.
DeleteHowever, you are correct that many international evangelists remove themselves from accountability. They follow the same old pattern we saw with HWA, and their example does nothing to convince observers of their sincerity, honesty, or motivational source.
BB
I had a 6-figure income before retiring comfortably.
ReplyDeleteTo boot, I was the sole Systems Programmer on the only IBM Mainframe computer left in the county where I worked and I maintained not just zOS (and did upgrades / managed $250,000 project to upgrade the hardware), but CICS and DB2 as well. I wrote the interface for scheduling production jobs, not just on the IBM Mainframe but on the HP3000 where I was System Manager controlling the whole system. I was responsible for keeping the systems (plural) running for such things as Payroll / Personnel, Budget and Finance and the Permit system for which I wrote the interface for Integrated Voice Response using TCP/IP over Berkley Sockets connecting the IBM Mainframe to the HP3000 using VTAM, connecting the two systems to the OCTEL telephone system (for which also I wrote the telephone billing system).
At Weyerhaeuser I was a manager at Corporate Headquarters for the Containerboard Packaging System where I managed at one point a $750,000 project across 5 states to upgrade a massive computer system in the Valiant Mill -- the project completed on time, under budget and was highly successful in doing it without disrupting hundreds of millions of dollars worth of production.
While at Weyerhaeuser, I provided corporate process to the United Church of God an International Association which formed much of the basis for their organization, spearheaded by Robert Dick, the Chairman.
Earlier in my career, I provided student sectioning for Eastern Washington University, wrote the Washington Occupational Information System for the PC, created the Spokane County Library Monograph Reference System and created a Pierce County Jail Chaplain Library System for the PC over the network using C# and SQLITE.
To me, Larry is bumbling moron, but what do I know. Maybe I'll get a clue to what he really is by consulting my copy of the DSM-5.
In fact, I at this time of my life, I view the entire CoHAM (Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia) as being at best insufficient, both as religionists and as human beings -- being less than competent at both and having deficiencies ranging from intelligence, mental disorders, ethics, morality and often legality, having no understanding of anything which could be considered "spiritual", and thus, being completely useless.
Moreover, I've done a fairly creditable job (with Gavin inspiring me) disproving the entire religion of Herbert Armstrong, making it irrelevant to the world accept as an amusing if obscure distorted perception of aggregated unscientific opinions raised to doctrine in a cult doomed from the start declining into the obscurity of entropy.
And for good measure I'll throw in that at the age of 12, I built a binary counter out of a rack of 24 volt DC electromechanical relays thrown out by AT&T into the town dump, which I rescued, designed the circuits for and soldered, powered by my 24 volt DC power supply.
If anyone wants to question my knowledge of that which is Catholic, I attended a Roman Catholic Parochial School as a baptized Lutheran for 11 years and even had 3 years of Latin in high school. My high school chemistry paper was about how I made 190 proof alcohol from a gallon of sugar water and yeast (and distilling the result). I also won't mention about my experiments with hydrogen gas.
My dad was the County Road Crew foreman and taught me how to weld. I could lay down a mean bead.
I shouldn't mention the book I wrote and published describing the personalities of the incompetents which populate the world, such as those from the Worldwide Church of God. Highly amusing, if not horrifying for those who have had an epiphany of recognition of those around them.
It should be clear I'm not very bright and I don't get out much, but I suspect that I might have the edge on Larry, thank you so much.
No wait!
Larry has the suspicious point of view and is hoping to achieve his secret agenda by provoking us.
Just remember my #1 Personal Law: Never knowingly argue with a crazy person.
"I built a binary counter out of a rack of .. relays"
DeleteYou must have made a string of relay Flip-Flops!
Okay Mikey, I am taking your advice, I will not argue with you.
ReplyDeleteBanned by HWA! has a profile of Blog Trolls who demand proof of others but hope that the rest of us will accept much less.
ReplyDeleteIt's a matter of fact that Joseph Tkach Senior lied about his US Navy experience among other things, and it's also a matter of fact that Joseph Tkach Junior has lied about his present time heading his "church", and last year when Junior visited his Grace Communion Int'l local church here, the main thing he did was to go on a beer-tasting tour around the city.
ReplyDeleteAn easy way to get a 6- figure "job" is have is to have friends or connections in any Big City Administration, like bankrupt Chicago, Detroit LOL.
ReplyDeleteIt was the handing out of 6-figure jobs that accelerated the WCG meltdown by 1995. Now only Joe and his close buddies have these lucrative secret perks.
in southern California, $120,000/yr puts one squarely in the middle class, even you add benefits.
ReplyDeleteWrong, the average Calif salary is less than half that. It's mainly a low-paying Service-economy, most manufacturers having wisely left the state.
Delete2012 Median Household Income in California was $58,238. 'Nuff said.
DeleteAnd let's not forget the extreme disparity caused by California's rich top 5% (including Tkach & his Buddies). Take away Silicon Valley & Hollywood then that $58k would sink precipitously! Then subtract the massive Federal welfare infusion to the bottom 50% (that includes most of Tkach's simple followers)...
DeleteBoth of you are right. But, in California, you do not live very well on $58,000/yr. You should try it. You cannot even buy a home on that salary. Because of very high prices, taxes and fees, $58,000 would put you in a LOWER middle class standard of living at best. So, $120,000 plus benefits, in California isn't very much. But, you get to live in California, although I don't know why anyone would want to....
DeleteBack when California was paradise, the prevailing attitude was, hey, anything to live in paradise. Just so long as you had enough money for beer, the ol' lady, a hotrod and or motorcycle, and who cared if you had to live in El Monte? Bomb out to the beach, go to the mountains, hit the many clubs or concerts to hear some good live rock n roll music, life was a gas. Then overpopulation kicked in, and it became just as much of a rat race as New York City. Liberal politics gradually took their toll, as well. There was an undercurrent of criminal activity always floating just below the surface and threatening to boil over, as riots underscored. Terrible place to raise kids, as their peers spoke more influentially and compellingly than did parents. I cashed out and moved out of the state over twenty years ago, and have never regretted it.
DeleteMy ex boss is knocking down about $300,000 per year, drives expensive sports cars, and lives in a gated community in one of the California beach cities, but even he would prefer to move to another state. He told me recently that he saw two guys making out in the mens room of a restaurant near his home, and he is disgusted with the liberal politics and the general softness on crime. I can sometimes honestly understand why Christians become cloistered and hang out in their own little communities. If that is what Joe Jr. does, maybe a 6 figure income can buy him an insulated lifestyle in Cali.
BB
How did this thread turn into a discussion of the cost of living in California and its desirability?
DeleteMy perspective is this: if $58,238 is the median, a salary of $120,000 puts you "squarely" way above the middle - probably in the top 10%. What that buys or doesn't buy is irrelevant.
My other points are apparently uncontested: (1) Joe Jr would not be making anywhere near this amount if he had stayed in the factory rather than inheriting his Daddy's church and (2) his current income is based on our past tithes, not the meager contributions of the few remaining members of the rump GCI church.
The circular flow money in California:
DeleteGovt >>Poor>>Tithe>>Tkach>>WealthTax>>Govt
and
Poor>>Toyota/Honda-dealers>>Japan>>US T-Bills>>Welfare>>Poor
But, Skeptic, wouldn't most of us have gladly paid someone to render Armstrongism inert and irrelevant? Someone was going to get the money, and most of us at one point assumed that it would be Rader, although it would have been nice to see it distributed amongst the tithe payers. The really important thing is that Ding Dong the witch is dead, the wicked, wicked witch is dead!
DeleteI personally believe that had there been a distribution back to the tithepayers, the leading bastards (ministers) would have conned the people somehow into sending it to them, and we would have seen myriad splinters today just the same. The only way around that would have been if some forward thinking individual had erased the computer records, which, though it might have slowed them down, still would not have done the job. Ministers and members knew where each other lived.
This is as good as it is ever going to get. I would never attend a Tkach church, but I believe Sr. and Jr. deserve our unending gratitude. They got the job done, and you can't really put a price tag on that.
BB
Well said BB! I've come around to the opinion that, in this imperfect world, this probably is as good as it is ever going to get. You're right, we were never going to see that money again anyway. Perhaps the Tkach/Tkach slimeballs earned every penny of it by dissolving WCG!
DeleteWhat?!
ReplyDeleteNo mention of rearranging deck chairs?