Comments on Otagosh: Transparent English Bible

Worth factoring in when considering the apologetic...

2008-04-04T20:20:00.000+13:00

Worth factoring in when considering the apologetics of Josh McDowell:

A Verdict on Josh McDowell

Stan,Thanks for the additional information. The r...

2008-04-04T19:45:00.000+13:00

Stan,

Thanks for the additional information. The reference source which I'd used felt that for a number of reasons, the Homeric poems of ancient Greece provided the most suitable comparison with the Bible, for sake of argumentation.

We could have used the Mahaharata, consisting of 250,000 lines, of which some 26,000 lines, or greater than ten percent, are considered to be corruptions.

Or if we were examining works which are generally considered to be authentic by scholars, in many cases the manuscripts or fragments number in the low double digits. And, in that, I include authors such as Caesar, Plato, Thucydides, Euripidies, and Aristophanes.
Some authors have better preservation of their works. Sophocles, who lived from 496-406 BC, is represented by 193 copies of his literary works, the earliest copy of which is dated at 1,000 AD.

What I find fascinating is that nobody questions the existence of Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Herodotus, Caesar, or any of quite a number of historical figures or authors, and there is less evidence to substantiate their existence, or authenticate their work than we have available to substantiate the Bible.

Much of this information comes from a book I am currently reading. The title is "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", by Josh McDowell. It is written from a legal standpoint, and with your background, I believe you might enjoy it.

BB

Bob, The Illiad is, together with the Odyssey, one...

2008-04-04T17:41:00.000+13:00

Bob,

The Illiad is, together with the Odyssey, one of two ancient Greek epic poems traditionally attributed to Homer, but his singular authorship for both works is a matter of some controversy. The Illiad is commonly dated to the 8th or 7th or even 6th century B.C. It is the oldest extant work of literature in the ancient Greek language, making it the first work of European literature.

Regarding Homer as the author:

The authorship of Homer versus other sources is a matter of possible contention in that the Iliad and Odyssey probably began as simple oral traditions passed between generations. Most likely, Homer may have been the first to put these Greek mythologies into more of an epic, consistent written form using the relatively new invention of writing.

'Beyond a few fragments of information, historians and classicists can only speculate about the life of the man who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey. The details are few. We do not even know the century in which he lived, and it is difficult to say with absolute certainty that the same poet composed both works. The Greeks attributed both of the epics to the same man, and we have little hard evidence that would make us doubt the ancient authorities, but uncertainty is a constant feature of scholarly work dealing with Homer's era of Greek history.'

Stan

Ah, thanks for clearing up the confusion! I told y...

2008-04-04T14:54:00.000+13:00

Ah, thanks for clearing up the confusion! I told you I didn't do much comparative canonical bible reading---guess I should have said I don't do ANY. :-)

The NAB is my primary study Bible.I also have the ...

2008-04-03T05:19:00.000+13:00

The NAB is my primary study Bible.
I also have the KJV, and the NIV, but it is difficult to top the NAB.

Critics often use the term "bibleolotry" to describe the irrational reverence that some display for scripture. Some who have translated the Bible in times past have clearly had their filters on, because they fail to note some of the difficulties and controversies surrounding not only the act of translating scripture, but the discrepancies amongst ancient manuscripts, the passages which appear to have been edited in centuries after the main body was thought to have been written, and the differences in literary character between works often credited to a common author.

The exhaustive notes in the NAB require just as much space as the scriptural texts. They detail the varied points of view of virtually anything which involves controversy, while also elucidating points made by referencing other similar scriptures, and adding historical details, giving both doctrinal and cultural perspective for key concepts and events.

Many do not realize the sheer volume of manuscripts extant to support translations of the Bible. As an example, there are over 24,000 manuscripts, or portions of manuscripts, in a variety of languages, of the New Testament alone! These are often painstakingly analyzed and compared when one is preparing a new translation. The notes in NAB describe this process. I am convinced that we can rely on the modern translations more fully, due to our enhanced capabilities to process information, and our current level of understanding of ancient languages.

BTW, to get an idea of the relative integrity of what we call the New Testament, we need only compare the number of available manuscripts to other works, and the relative "authoritativeness" of these works. There are approximately 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, written in 900 B.C., and considered as sacred text by the Greeks. The earliest copy is from 400B.C. There are about 20,000 lines of text in the NT, and the Iliad contains about 15,600. 764 lines of the Iliad are questioned by scholars, whereas only 40 lines of the NT are in doubt. This means that there is a 5% textual corruption of the Iliad, but only one half of one percent possible corruption of New Testament text.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls provided scholars with a unique opportunity to guage the accuracy of our modern Bibles. As most probably know, the ancient scribes generally destroyed the worn out exemplars which they were copying. These scrolls are therefore an anomaly, and are believed to be the most ancient manuscripts of Old Testament manuscripts available, and they acted to corroborate the manuscripts dating from much later periods, as there was little variation.

The history of the Bible is fascinating, no doubt. What I enjoy most about our modern translations is that criticism is dealt with rather than filtered out. It's like the scientific method being applied to Bible study, and is refreshingly much more honest than blind reverence.

BB

The NASB (fundamentalist literal) is different fro...

2008-04-01T16:50:00.000+13:00

The NASB (fundamentalist literal) is different from the NAB (American Catholic). The NAB is IMHO an excellent translation.

"...or YHVH ELOHIM had not made rain on the land, ...

2008-04-01T07:52:00.000+13:00

"...or YHVH ELOHIM had not made rain on the land, and there was no soil-man to service the soil..."

The thing is, if the TEB actually is as true to the Hebrew as it claims, then it becomes painfully obvious that "the sacred text" of modern christianity really is based on a bunch of polytheistic-turned-monotheistic primitives that lived a long time ago, far, far away.

I can see why the christians might not take too kindly to it!

Interesting that you should express such dislike for the NASB Gavin: Is that because it's Catholic canon, or just because it's bad reading?

I make no pretense at having done any comparative bible reading myself; the canonical text I tend to stick with, when I have need of biblical references, is the one I grew up with, the NKJV.

As far as reading-for-the-sake-of-reading purposes, I much prefer the gnostic gospels and non-canonical texts.