tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post7549899646052711614..comments2024-03-12T11:58:24.510+13:00Comments on Otagosh: From the Garage Archives - a 1996 view of WCG changesGavin Rhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17965552923012880262noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-9427458899475167482015-02-08T15:04:41.747+13:002015-02-08T15:04:41.747+13:00Bob - that was a fair answer.
Neo - I can tell yo...Bob - that was a fair answer.<br /><br />Neo - I can tell you don't mean any harm, but the underlying assumptions behind your statements just astound me. Here's something that is true of all of us: we don't know what we don't know. I'm guessing you've never gotten to know any atheists.The Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327459017793489626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-71341558923491857252015-02-07T21:27:37.771+13:002015-02-07T21:27:37.771+13:00Having been on both sides of the philosophical fen...Having been on both sides of the philosophical fence, my own observation would be that Christians have a moral imperative for certain standards of behavior in their lives. They believe that it is God's way. However, atheists believe that thousands of years of human experience have given birth to a certain logic as to what is inherently good, and what is inherently evil. There are certain activities that virtually every society has considered to be wrong, or bad, throughout history. Many atheists actively work to promote good, and are commended for their behavior; some are even said to practice "Christian" ethics.<br /><br />Actually, they kind of inform one another, both being present in multi-cultural societies. Armstrongism distorted perception of both groups, as sincere mainstream Christians were seen as being "Christians falsely so-called" because they didn't subscribe to specific picked and chosen elements of the Old Covenant, and therefore just as "bad" as atheists.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-84648993598002090112015-02-07T16:05:37.022+13:002015-02-07T16:05:37.022+13:00I don't think it is ignorant. I think it is b...I don't think it is ignorant. I think it is both perceptive and correct. How is it that you decide what is moral? Is your morality founded on something we have never heard of?<br /><br />I try to do what is right because I agree with God about what is right. Like not stealing and killing people. <br /><br />And in your example why would you value a "moral life" at all without any reason to believe there is right and wrong? It would seem like morality would be meaningless to you - just an odd and inexplicable human behavior.<br /><br />I will grant that it may be the case that many atheists simply do not believe in God but have no further intention of finding some other reason for morality. They simply proceed to live in a moral vacuum. It is just that most atheists I have ever met do seem to follow a moral code that curiously seems rooted in traditional Western values that are, in turn, rooted in the Bible. <br /><br />-- NeoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-28626746288348135502015-02-07T10:06:38.886+13:002015-02-07T10:06:38.886+13:00"People who do not believe in God simply make..."People who do not believe in God simply make up what is right and what is wrong arbitrarily." This is untrue and ignorant.<br /><br />"After all, that is the fundamental purpose for being and atheist. " Actually, no. Most atheists are atheistic because they see no truth in your fairy-tale god stories. We see right through your myths.<br /><br />So, you think you're so moral because you believe in a mythical being? Do you do the right thing to try to gain god's rewards? Or to try to avoid god's punishment? Does that make you moral? It seems to me a much higher level of morality is the person who envisions no rewards and no punishments, but lives a moral life anyway. Because it's the right thing to do.The Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327459017793489626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-44708201895821277542015-02-07T09:38:15.193+13:002015-02-07T09:38:15.193+13:00My statement was that atheists have no "found...My statement was that atheists have no "foundation for right and wrong". So to be more precise "no belief in god = no founded morality". That equation may be critiqued by saying that atheists do have a foundation for determining right from wrong and it is themselves. I am excluding the tautologous case. In fact, I am saying the tautologous case is the degenerate case where most atheists find residence. Whatever value judgement they make is true because in the atheistic view, there is no other sentient moralizer in the universe that exceeds the authority of the atheist. So to solve the HWA problem, just decide now that he was good in all his actions. Why not? The self-moralizer can even look to nature and evolution to find some justification for this. HWA was ensuring the survival of the species by being quite encompassing in his approach. <br /><br />The fact is there is no credible evidence that HWA committed this heinous act and there never will be. So you will have to take it, how troubling, on faith. <br /><br />-- NeoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-46267063519563743762015-02-07T07:07:25.898+13:002015-02-07T07:07:25.898+13:00It does not logically follow (non sequitur) that *...It does not logically follow (non sequitur) that *no god = no morality* because god-sourced morality is an unproven assumption.Minimalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07394978086891772878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-15494500107452960372015-02-07T05:53:09.210+13:002015-02-07T05:53:09.210+13:00What about Dorothy would not honor such drivel wit...What about Dorothy would not honor such drivel with a response. One speculation is a good as another. <br /><br />-- NeoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-16096652434862695072015-02-07T05:51:55.146+13:002015-02-07T05:51:55.146+13:00People who do not believe in God simply make up wh...People who do not believe in God simply make up what is right and what is wrong arbitrarily. After all, that is the fundamental purpose for being and atheist. So to solve everyone's issue with HWA, just decide that incest is right. Suddenly, no problem. I wouldn't do that but that is the atheistic prerogative. <br /><br />-- NeoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-57979860953245739952015-02-06T15:56:58.972+13:002015-02-06T15:56:58.972+13:00And wasn't she paid off with a HQ "job&qu...And wasn't she paid off with a HQ "job"-$$$,$$$.ΒΆΒΆ that included lots of travel? Minimalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07394978086891772878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-6873003449915134322015-02-06T15:50:17.679+13:002015-02-06T15:50:17.679+13:00"people who do not believe in God and have no..."people who do not believe in God and have no foundation for right and wrong" = non sequiturMinimalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07394978086891772878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-25499470317493930912015-02-06T13:46:00.143+13:002015-02-06T13:46:00.143+13:00I would think that Dorothy would have denied it......I would think that Dorothy would have denied it...to the family, if to no one else, but she didn't.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-61577349999068317882015-02-06T09:37:22.936+13:002015-02-06T09:37:22.936+13:00It is odd to me that people who do not believe in ...It is odd to me that people who do not believe in God and have no foundation for right and wrong can get so incensed over HWA's alleged behavior. <br /><br />-- Neo <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-9443847826052253032015-02-05T04:22:19.838+13:002015-02-05T04:22:19.838+13:00It should be pointed out that gossip is not allowe...It should be pointed out that gossip is not allowed as testimony in court....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-30875224879131941392015-02-04T10:45:33.846+13:002015-02-04T10:45:33.846+13:00Tom, methinks YOU are still in the frying pan!
Ho...Tom, methinks YOU are still in the frying pan!<br /><br />How arrogant of you to assert the doctrines of Armstrongism never existed. Although you may disagree with the perjorative name "Armstrongism", you know very well what doctrines are being referred to. They were the doctrines taught by Herbert W. Armstrong. They very much DID exist and still DO. They were a form of cult thinking which enthralled many and still has some in their grip, yourself included.<br /><br />Finally, I suggest you look up the meaning of "literally". You are literally using it incorrectly.<br /><br />The Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327459017793489626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-63873708291212334012015-02-04T06:47:38.634+13:002015-02-04T06:47:38.634+13:00It would be nice if there were incontrovertible ev...It would be nice if there were incontrovertible evidence that God exists and that the Bible is absolutely accurately God's Inspired Word.<br /><br />These days, it turns out that we all thought that we had incontrovertible evidence that Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet. Not so! From the depths of "Fragmentation of a Sect", there are those who make the claim that Herbert Armstrong was NOT a false prophet. It isn't clear what sort of evidence could be produced to render the facts incontrovertible. <br /><br />The truth seems to be that the Worldwide Church of God was quite the Great Litigator. In fact, they threatened to bring suit against the Church of God Seventh Day over a booklet, which, in the end, the CoG7D had published decades before and Herbert Armstrong had plagiarized.<br /><br />One would think, given the record of Herbert Armstrong and the WCG that David Robinson and the Ambassador Report would have been sued royally. Herbert Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God were not the sort who would just let anyone get away with making quite damaging statements without making them pay. I know, I know -- they wanted to just ignore it so as not to bring attention to it... but that's not the record of how they operated. They sued. Especially with Stanley Rader in the mix, they sued vigorously. And when it came to legal action, they generally won out, as witnessed by the State of California bringing suit: It was the David against Goliath and everybody in the religious community was rooting for the underdog because they knew what could happen next: All religions could be held accountable for misappropriation of funds (It was a bad move and the State of California should have let the Internal Revenue Service and the United States Justice Department do the heavy lifting as they did with the PKG and Ronald Weinland).<br /><br />Not precisely incontrovertible proof, but certainly it fits into the framework of 'preponderance of evidence' which was the point all along.<br /><br />Logically, a lack of lawsuits is quite damaging, given the nature of the beast.<br /><br />And you know, being a false prophet really is much worse if you consider that God exists and the Bible is God's Word.<br /><br />But you know, we don't have incontrovertible proof of that, so it's all just a theoretical discussion for the sake of entertainment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-37836662038947208182015-02-04T05:51:02.831+13:002015-02-04T05:51:02.831+13:00Well, at least we have GTA exposed on internationa...Well, at least we have GTA exposed on international television, so if you find proof of incest lacking, then maybe evidence that Herbert Armstrong let his philandering son be second in command at Pasadena would be enough.<br /><br />What's next? Exposing horrible treatment of Conscience Objectors at Big Sandy is just malicious gossip?<br /><br />I note no mention of the interviews with the grandchildren and there's that letter from Jack Kessler.<br /><br />It should have been "You're kidding". It's supposed to be a contraction of 'you' and 'are'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-64003967780696502592015-02-04T05:44:23.539+13:002015-02-04T05:44:23.539+13:00I knew David Robinson well. Wouldn't believe a...I knew David Robinson well. Wouldn't believe anything he said! So, the mere fact that he is the one proclaiming it, suggests that it is total bull.larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207263922457941293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-49870837352360039672015-02-04T04:11:22.138+13:002015-02-04T04:11:22.138+13:00Yep...and Tedd Armstrong. Whatever, some folks liv...Yep...and Tedd Armstrong. Whatever, some folks live in denial. Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-86913856242947944332015-02-03T17:25:40.057+13:002015-02-03T17:25:40.057+13:00Henrik says: >I started out fighting for the do...Henrik says: >I started out fighting for the doctrines of Armstrongism.<<br /><br />You were fighting for teachings that never existed, you may be disappointed to learn! <br /><br />>When I began investigating things more thoroughly, I came past the historic errors, and today I would consider myself semi-Buddhist.<<br /><br />What is a "semi-Buddhist?" Is that similar to a woman who is semi-pregnant? Methinks that you have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire, literally!Tom Mahonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087223683733643082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-4636123634738280622015-02-03T16:53:48.593+13:002015-02-03T16:53:48.593+13:00Your kidding. David Robinson, Ambassador Reports...Your kidding. David Robinson, Ambassador Reports, undocumented statements supposedly made by GTA, statements in a lawsuit made by a woman with a financial interest and other such biased hearsay?! It is odd that people who find faith in God to be so ludicrous can yet place great faith in such drivel. The uncertain authorship of Hebrews is a show-stopper but the many unattributed statements in Ambassador Reports are canonical for HWA detractors. I think as a heretic HWA was far afield from Christianity and taught this to others. That is bad enough. The accusation of incest without incontrovertible evidence is just malicious gossip.<br /><br />-- NeoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-44898519728840878042015-02-03T06:48:44.065+13:002015-02-03T06:48:44.065+13:00To grasp the concept, imagine that we are talking ...To grasp the concept, imagine that we are talking about Sabbath keeping Scientology instead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-22938072832665909882015-02-03T06:47:57.835+13:002015-02-03T06:47:57.835+13:00And that's a shame because it is the core of t...And that's a shame because it is the core of the qualifications of a minister: We expect ministers too also sin, but to commit one of the most heinous sins in the sight of even hardened criminals in prison, certainly disqualifies a man from the ministry permanently and also suggests that if he is doing it after baptism the first ten years of his ministry, that he cannot be described as 'converted' by any measure -- I mean, ten years? That's a very long time not to realize you have done something wrong and NOT repent.<br /><br />But then, being a false prophet is a big disqualifier from the ministry... in fact, in terms of Old Testament Scripture, that earns death and from Revelation, the lies will prevent a man from being in the Kingdom of God. There never seemed to be any indication of any sort of repentance from being a false prophet either.<br /><br />And of course, pretty much by definition, there is no such thing as a Christian narcissist -- me, me, me, me, me, me, me, just doesn't seem to fit into the description of outgoing love for others when you only really think of yourself and your great swelling ego.<br /><br />British Israelism is just icing on an already major fail.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-22934863433332547172015-02-02T09:41:43.923+13:002015-02-02T09:41:43.923+13:00Gavin can answer for himself. I'll answer for...Gavin can answer for himself. I'll answer for my case. I came to realize "the beliefs I once held to be true" were not true. They were not even close to true. They were profoundly untrue. I had been duped by a master salesman.<br />The Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327459017793489626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-79070701433019445462015-02-02T07:31:09.022+13:002015-02-02T07:31:09.022+13:00Actually, we don't even need the incest. Obvi...Actually, we don't even need the incest. Obviously, some people expected it to be some sort of silver bullet, but the problem in that is that a horrible sin does not disprove or repudiate doctrines. Only correct facts and better understanding can do that. <br /><br />We become more credible in addressing the Armstrong problem by doing such things as publishing scanned copies of member letters about 1972-75 that were signed "In Jesus Name", demonstrating the failings and foibles of Hislop, using real science and real history to debunk extrabiblical theories, and so forth. Often, if you point out from scripture that Manasseh and Ephraim were half-Egyptian, people will listen. They may try to explain to you that the mother was somehow actually white, but they will at least listen. That is a door opener. But, the minute someone raises this incest issue, Armstrongites will slam the door and not find another thing that person might have to say to them credible. In their minds, it's as if the accuser were wearing some sort of satanic medallion.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52912413020249030.post-61330413939767394712015-02-02T04:40:29.252+13:002015-02-02T04:40:29.252+13:00Don't believe in the incest, eh?
Then A Prepo...Don't believe in the incest, eh?<br /><br />Then <a href="http://silenced.co/2014/03/a-preponderance-of-evidence/" rel="nofollow">A Preponderance of Evidence over at Silenced</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com