So I wonder what Mike would make of John Shuck's latest posting...
...I disagree that we need to reclaim the Trinity except as one metaphor among many. If it is true that we Presbys have become "functional Unitarians" it may not be because we are bad or wrong. It could be because the Unitarians are more persuasive. (Many of the Unitarians I know have moved beyond "God" altogether).Poetic and artsy? That seems to describe the perichoresis-type "trinitarian theology" embraced by these guys. Those good, decent folk in GCI who are being sold this stuff by Jonathan Stepp and others are hopefully benefiting in some way, but for the life of me I can't think how.
I do not mean this as an insult, but I find much of our modern theological work little more than dealing in antiquities. The Trinity, the person of Christ, the sacraments, the authority of the Bible, eschatology, and so forth were invented in the pre-modern era and are best suited for that time period.
This does not mean that we are smarter or more hip than the people who invented these ideas. We simply have changed. Trying to retrofit our belief systems to a modern understanding of the Universe, Earth, and Earth's inhabitants turns theologians and pastors into pawn brokers for ancient religious relics that fewer and fewer people embrace.
If folks aren't interested in the Trinity and have become functional Unitarians, it could be because they have moved. Rather than make people feel bad, theologically inept, or heretical--"You are not Presbyterian unless you believe all of this stuff"--maybe we should listen to what people are really saying.
While I find the Trinity to be poetic and artsy, I have a hard time finding any reality to it.
"If folks aren't interested in the Trinity and have become functional Unitarians, it could be because they have moved."
ReplyDeleteFor whatever it's worth (take this observation at face value, please, I still don't know what to make of it) many in the ex-WCG crowd (particularly those who decided to start up their own group), are pretty evangelical about preaching Unitarianism; which denies not only their former teachings, but also denies more than a few significant chunks of the Bible.
"Those good, decent folk in GCI who are being sold this stuff by Jonathan Stepp and others are hopefully benefiting in some way, but for the life of me I can't think how."
I still think, personally, the only benefit they're deriving is the ability to fly under the radar/how to pretend to be something they're not....
Anyway, I hope you are having a happy and spiritually productive Pentecost, Gavin!
Anyway, I hope you are having a happy and spiritually productive Pentecost, Gavin!
ReplyDeleteDid Velvet return to Armstrongism?
I can't think of anything more doublespeak than Ted Johnston's, "Surprising God Blog." I imagine God is surprised.
ReplyDeleteIt's even more painful to think he gets paid to think like he does.
It is ultimately painful to read the comments he accepts about his musings and makes me wonder what I'm missing in the ones he won't.
Mike Feazell would hang that symbol of the Trinity on his Xmas tree and write some looney article on why it has a deeply spiritual meaning as an ornament. I believe he did the same thing with a Snoopy as Red Barron ornament last year.
...the ability to fly under the radar/how to pretend to be something they're not....
ReplyDeleteThis gets right to the heart of it, doesn't it? Pretense. People putting up shingles claiming to be something they're not... in order to gain a following. It's not that they have any useful information. They don't. It's not like they're selling Secrets of the JavaScript Ninja so others could do something useful with the information they claim to have.
It's all a fraud. Every bit of it.
The goal?
Wait for it.
We've been here before.
They lie to you and then they take your money.
This has never been more true as with the Grace Communion International. You can go almost anywhere in civilization (as commonly defined) and find a local group with all the teaching you need concerning God, Jesus Christ and (gasp!) The Holy Spirit. Mileages vary. Buying into GCI is like buying a very old Volkswagon Beetle that's been transformed with mismatched parts into a Chevy Volt which runs poorly, if at all, at a very high price and incredibly high maintenance. It will remain mostly in the parking lot, or maybe up on blocks in your garage, if you have one. And by the way, it doesn't actually run on electricity; it now runs on diesel.
As to Unitarians... mileage varies. The ones who get the attention are the ones who do ignore vast chunks of Scripture (not unlike everyone else). There are a few who don't. Not that anyone's interested, but there is at least one version which is nominally Scriptural, has one Great Eternal God Creator Most High, with Jesus Christ as being from God before the Creation as the Word and later becoming the Messiah, having been part of God Himself and using the Power of the Holy Spirit. I'm not certain if the view is exactly modern, but it certainly isn't the Monotheism as postulated by those unmentioned by the first poster to this post.
The bottom line: The Truth. Good luck with that.
John Shuck gives me hope that we can jettison a lot of the superstition and medieval cultural elements of Christianity and still have something important (more important, even) left.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that we need to reclaim the Trinity
ReplyDeleteHas the upper management of the new and improved World Wide ever got along? I wonder if we will see more splintering if Grace can't get there act together.
This is like the never ending story.
Jon Stepp says:
ReplyDelete"Based on what we have experienced, I would make three suggestions to any pastor or congregation embarking on this process:
1.Find a mentor in the gospel. Tim Brassell has been my mentor and he helps me, on a weekly basis, to shape my thinking, speaking, and doing in the light of the gospel.
2.Soak your mind in books, articles, and blogs that focus on the reality of who Jesus is for us and who we are in him, and you will find that the what of ministry begins to flow much more naturally.
3.Be bold. Those you are ministering to are the Father’s adopted, forgiven children in Jesus whether they know it or not. In the Holy Spirit you can confidently, with wisdom and gentleness, proclaim this truth to them, and the Spirit will back you up."
Me too:
1. Find a mentor in the real origins and history of the Bible. Bart Ehrman, John Spong and Israel Finkelstein are mine. Throw in a few hundred others and we're good to go.
2. Soak your mind in books, articles and blogs about evolution, inerrancy, astro-theology and orgins of Christianty. Find blogs on the historical Jesus and the role of the Apostle Paul in the Church. Ask just who he was and why everyone, including the early followers and disciples of Jesus hated the man. Ask if the Jesus of the Bible ever existed in space and time.
3. Be bold. Pious conviction with marginal information is not your friend. The facts of history and science are behind you