What a lot of arrant bulldust some people write on this question.
Especially ministers "in the trade".
The latest to loudly sound forth with pious expectorations on this matter is Baptist Über-blogger Jim West.
Now Jim is no fundamentalist-biblicist dilettante, and I freely confess to being a regular and mostly appreciative reader. But when it comes to social issues, in this case the decline in church attendance, Brother West is anything but reflective.
"First, people leave the Church because – as Jesus explained in his parable of the seed – they have no spiritual depth and let other concerns dominate their lives..."
He goes on to quote the parable about seed on rocky ground.
"And second, more tragically, some folk leave the Church because in their hearts they were never really there in the first place, never really committed to God but simply appearing to be in order to profit from their appearance in the congregation."
I feel like throwing up.
It's got nothing at all to do with the church and it's irrelevancy issues in a post-modern world. Nothing to to do with the horrendous track record of the various Christian denominations, or the slimy high-profile evangelists who are increasingly the public face of the church.
Jim might rub his noggin ever so many times without coming anywhere near the conclusion that many good folk transition to ex-Christians because it has become an unavoidable ethical imperative; an integrity issue. They do it - often with deep regret - because, in a sense, it's the Christian thing to do.
Jim might rub his noggin ever so many times without coming anywhere near the conclusion that many good folk transition to ex-Christians because it has become an unavoidable ethical imperative; an integrity issue. They do it - often with deep regret - because, in a sense, it's the Christian thing to do.
But nope, if you leave it's obvious you had a "factory second" faith from the get-go. Y'all didn't pray hard 'nuff. Chances are you were just plain lazy. Your motives were, at best, mixed to begin with. You can almost sense the shadowy figure of Calvin, grinding his teeth and gloating in the background.
And while the mullahs of the Bible Belt maintain this self-justifying, sanctimonious feel-good fiction, there's absolutely no chance that the church will come to terms with the underlying realities that are rapidly pushing it to the fringes of the modern world.
You're spot on about Jim West's social sensibilities. He has few and those are wildly emotional, rather than based in any rationality. The church hangers-on will always blame the leavers, til there are no leavers left to leave. Examining the church itself is out of the question, and it's why folks leave -- so they are in a vicious cycle. Crazy. When I left the church, after pouring myself 110% for decades into it, not a soul bothered to actually ask me "why." There were assumptions, and no real efforts to learn anything from me directly. I was no wall flower either -- I was a pretty high profile 'actor' but it was like they were all too afraid to just ask. And yes, the assumptions made were all along the lines you noted and totally wrong.
ReplyDeleteSince you were no "wall flower but "a high profile actor," your comments, probably, would have been helpful in helping other leavers to understand their decision to leave - if you had the courage to add your name. Of what are you afraid?
DeleteTom, I withhold my name not out of fear, per se, for my own self, but out of respect to my spouse who is still dedicated and attends church. I'd rather not create problems for my spouse by offending those with whom they are still fellowshipping each week. I try not to be offensive, but folks can be pretty sensitive when a person goes into "apostasy" and publicly comments. I'm happy to help anyone understand my decision to leave, if they want to know. But I will not go around making a case of it unless I have a personal request from someone who is genuinely trying to understand. As I said above, there wasn't a single soul who seemed to want to understand, or who even "asked" at all. And -- I am not offended by that. But I do think it's very telling. I could say my name of course, but I don't think my name would make my reasons any more or less compelling -- they are reasons that any (and many) would find toward the same decision. I don't think I'm unique in that respect -- as the trend would seem to largely indicate.
DeleteI left my "church" and Xianity altogether because I woke up and realized it's all a bunch of nonsense. That's what science and common sense does for people. Well, that and a rather vile church history and the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever for anything supernatural that they have ever claimed. The fact that they have always been 100% wrong, 100% of the time, for thousands of years about everything in the world...well, people are figuring it out...finally.
ReplyDeleteMany people leave church because they realize deep in their hearts that it just isn't true.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Jim West leave WCG for the same reasons he now cites? Or is arguing that he left WCG because he realised it was not the one true church of God, and he will never leave his new church because it is definitely the church of God?
ReplyDeleteI expect West would be mortified at the suggestion that he was ever a member of WCG. Whatever gave you that idea?
DeleteEven though the USA was founded as a secular society, it took almost 200 years to kick Jesus out of the classroom.
ReplyDeleteOnly now are seeing the first superstition-free generations - especially the so-called 'Millennials' (Generation-Y)
If I am mistaken, I apologise. But I thought he was one of the so-called ministers that left WCG in the 1970s.
DeleteStill, if he was never a member of the one true church, WCG, he has no credibility at all. For he is merely religious, having zeal but no knowledge.
There was a Jim West in WCG in Pasadena during the 1960's and '70s, just not the one referenced here. The Jim West I'm thinking of was not a minister while I knew him, but then again, I left in 1975 when Herbie was proven to be one who had spread false prophecies.
DeleteJim West is a fairly common name like Al Smith or Bob White. There's a certwin amount of anonymity in that.
BB
Tom, although this topic started with a reference to a lot of arrant bulldust, we honestly weren't asking for some more.
DeleteThanks, though, for the stark reminder of how we all used to think. I'm so glad to have left that behind.
"Fragmentation of a Sect" left me with the distinct impression that people leave a religion because it no longer fulfils their emotional needs, and, in some cases, once it ceases to be emotionally filling, for whatever reason, many people turn to logic and rationality to reinforce their choices.
ReplyDeleteBy its nature, religion tends to be irrational, so most people aren't a part of religion because it is logical and represents truth. The emotions and passions that drive them will keep them in the religion even after they have proof in hand that their religion is logically and scientifically wrong. Look at the Cult of British Israelism: We've proved it wrong in at least 8 different ways, including DNA evidence. Proponents of the religion from the rank and file to the founders and leaders still hold on to it when they learn that it is rubbish (especially the ministers who get... well... like, um... money from it -- their business would fail without it and then what would they do? Work for a living? I don't think so!). It's when people get to the point where something overwhelms their emotional set point that they consider leaving. It might be that they've lost too much money, been too oppressed, insulted by the ministry treating them with contempt or they age to the point their friends are gone and they lose enthusiasm for it. It's pretty much social reasons for most.
Of course, the one thing that people don't learn for a very long time is that man cannot live by incompetence alone, but there are some who seem to be able to violate this aphorism, such as Ronald Weinland.
Maybe Jim West needs to look at the emotional content of his particular religion and figure out why it is no longer as socially appealing as it once was. Maybe people have just gotten to the point that it's just not worth it to them any more.
Address of church is given on sign, that's an expensive area. I'm guessing they want around $1.8m for property (could not find listing). A church these days is not going to give sufficient 'Return-on-Investment' with those property values. They better move to the ghetto where there are more believers due to the inverse relationship of education/faith.
ReplyDeleteThe churches should do as Fortune 500 companies do. They should take exit interviews. Probably many people drop out of church surreptitiously, but in most cases, members are part of a community in which they have close friends, relatives, and neighbors. Presumably, these people would all be pressing for explanations. The exit interview would not keep people from leaving, but tabulating the reasons might help understanding.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, when individuals make changes to the major elements of their lives, it doesn't generally happen over night. There is a gradual build.
BB
Exit interviews for the Church Corporate?
DeleteWhy didn't I think of that?
I am sure you probably did think of it, Douglas, as you created the structural model for UCG! However, a Fortune 500 company has leverage that a church does not. When an employee is cutting ties, he or she must behave themselves until they have received their severance package. In the case of a church, the severance package is generally regarded as being "hell". That has to effect behavior and approach. Also, departing members might feel that their exit interview was a thinly disguised attempt to persuade them to remain within the fold. Therefore, such interviews should be conducted by a person other than the minister.
DeleteI wonder if Barna has done any surveys or studies in this area.
BB
Yeah, a gradual buildup of cognitive dissonance until common sense and actual, tangible knowledge kicks in and you can no longer un-know what you know. At that time, your doubts become something a whole lot more than doubts and you suddenly wake up to the fact that you have been taught a pack of lies and a mess of contradiction.
DeleteByker Bob, actually I provided a terrible Corporation invention for the UCG: The annual 360 review, where your superiors, peers and subordinates contributed to your review process (I even overheard Dennis Luker comment about this to another member in the parking lot after a Bible Study). Weyerhaeuser abandoned them as being too cumbersome. I view it is a nice little revenge on United.
DeleteBut no, I hadn't thought about the exit interview for the Church Corporate, since I was too naïve, innocent and simplistic at the time to begin to envision people leaving the UCG. It's one of those "well, duh" moments where I really should have seen it coming.
You have to remember that United was a pretty positive place for 8 months, particularly with the Good News publishing upbeat even "spiritual" articles, until Dennis Luker moved in, took over and it descended into the transformation which eventually produced over 50 splits all by itself and had those awful stories about the Columbine shootings for a whole year. It was like a dark pall covered everything with the Church Corporate slowly descending into Corporate depression.
I wonder if they ever pulled out briefly at some point. I think not.
And that scenario is applicable to the wider audience of even traditional churches which seem to be descending into a sort of Church Corporate depression -- which may contribute to decline in attendance in many cases.
Was Luker some kind of Liberal reformer?
DeleteMy comments on this topic:
ReplyDeletehttp://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/
I don't think 74% of people in America "believe" in God, it's more probable that 74% "assume" there's a God because other people assume the same thing and have been taught from the cradle that there is. But then, Americans are pretty ignorant, about 40% think the earth is only 6,000 years old.
DeleteJust for giggles, below are some responses to the points on your website.
Delete"Don't we think of someone who is affectionate as one who readily demonstrates his/her affection, fondness, love or tenderness for another person? Isn't that descriptive of God's character? "
ANSWER: Are you kidding? God doesn't demonstrate anything! We pray to him and we get the silent treatment in return. Christians have to make up their own answers, e.g. "maybe God said no", because God NEVER EVER answers! If that isn't the opposite of affectionate and demonstrative then what is?
"Don't we think of someone who is affectionate as one who readily demonstrates his/her affection, fondness, love or tenderness for another person? Isn't that descriptive of God's character?"
ANSWER: Are you living in the same universe as I?
"Isn't God the epitome of reliability and faithfulness?"
ANSWER: Actually, no. He promises to protect people and then tragedies befall them. He promises to heal people and they get sicker and sicker and die. He promises to bless people and their troubles just get worse. God is totally unreliable; in fact he seems to be a bald-faced liar.
Well, three examples are enough. Clearly you are attributing properties to God that are not being experienced by those of us who live on planet earth.
Are you saying that anyone who believes in God is ignorant? If so, that sounds an awful lot like what some Christians say about Atheists.
DeleteI accept that the earth is billions of years old. I believe that the evolutionary model is a reasonable explanation for the diversity of life on this planet. I also believe in God. My belief is based on my own experiences and observations - like yours.
I detect some hurt and anger over past experiences. The Worldwide Church of God used and abused me, but I survived and thrived. Moreover, I am who I am today in part because of those experiences.
Those experiences have taught me to be more careful and thoughtful about what I accept and reject. My studies have caused me to reject a great deal of the information that I previously accepted as truth, but I hope that it never provokes the same kind of carelessness in me that prompted my acceptance of some of those beliefs. I don't want to throw the baby out with the dirty bath water!
So, it all really does come down to once believing and then ceasing to believe being the reason why people leave the church. There probably is some hurt and anger at first but that changes to disappointment and then to acceptance of having been used over time.
DeleteDid the belief in the Trinity of Osiris, Isis and Horus in Egypt for thousands of years have anything to do with ignorance? After all, they did build the pyramids and a great empire in spite of that ignorance - or was it because of it? Did their gods help them do it? I would say "no" but they probably would have said "yes". Did their gods accept their sacrifices and answer their prayers? I would say "no" but they would have said "yes".
I'm not sure if Miller Jones' comments were directed at me. If they were, let me just say that I did not call anyone ignorant. Lots of intelligent, well-informed people believe in God. My comments were directed at the link above them, which claims God has attributes, such as demonstrating affection, that we clearly do not see here on planet earth. Unless, of course, we play make-believe: something happens in the normal course of life and we attribute it to God being affectionate. That's the game some play, but of course it's just fantasy.
DeleteThey could have died off. There is that.
ReplyDeleteEspecially for geriatric congregations.
Dear Skeptic,
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked, I was living on planet earth. However, it is obvious that we do live in different worlds and are talking about different Gods. My perspective on both is shaped by my experiences and observations - just like yours. I'm sorry to say so, but your God and your world don't sound very nice. I haven't walked in your shoes, and you haven't walked in mine. Your perspective may be valid when related to your experiences and observations, but that doesn't invalidate mine.
By the way, the post that you quoted was written for Mother's Day. The one related to this topic is the one preceding that one. Also, the main thesis of the post was that too many people have associated God with the male gender and masculinity for far too long. My God transcends gender.
Scripture supports your negative view of God, but it also supports my view. I choose to reject the negative and attribute it to human bias and prejudice and embrace those positive references to the Divine as being closer to reality.
Dear Miller Jones,
DeleteWhether "Scripture" supports my view or yours, to me, is irrelevant. However, the "experiences and observations" you refer to are indeed relevant. My world is beautiful, exciting and meaningful. I have a good life here and I'm very happy with it. That's a separate question from the involvement you attribute to God. Objective observation shows no "affection", "fondness", "faithfulness" or any other involvement by God. While I don't claim to have the answer, evidence suggest either the Atheists or the Deists have got it right. God is just plain not involved in the present happenings on planet earth.
My reply to this comment is posted at http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/
DeleteWest's analysis reminds me of WWCG ministers. Counseling with them was never desirable. They always managed to place the blame for everything that went wrong on the laymember. Typically, it was not enough prayer, bible study, fasting, meditation and money sent to HQ. The answers were not always pat but they were almost always defamatory and incriminating.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that most people abandon church attendance after becoming disillusioned with pathological denominationalism. In this cul-de-sac there is lots of striving for control, politics, hypocrisy, exclusivism and smarmy sanctimoniousness, just to mention a few attributes.
-- Neo
I have quit church several times but God somehow draws me back in, I am pretty much like the prodigal son but my Psalm 23 describes my faith journey so far. For me its largely an inner experience of meaning and hope and learning to live in peace. There have been plenty of rocky obstacles and heartbreak along the way, and i definitely don't have all the answers, but Jesus has helped me through some pretty dark sh*t
ReplyDelete