Sunday 13 June 2010

Oh sheesh, I hate Calvinism!

I might complain about the Missouri Synod, but they're light years ahead of this guy. Robert Morey regurgitates nine minutes full of hateful, pouting, effete, self-obsessed Calvinism. His message (paraphrased): smile, God hates you!

Felix Taylor had this clip on his blog, where he graciously concluded with the observation that one "might not agree with Dr. Morey but I am sure he will make you think." Felix is an unusually acute observer and a scrupulously honest commentator, but this is one of the few times I have to shake my head in despair. Morey indeed causes a reaction, but it sure isn't an intellectual one. It reappears here to simply, quoting a good friend, "keep our disgust fresh."

Morey has a motley history (as well as a motley theology) and has been aligned with the wingnuts at WorldNetDaily.

It shows.


  1. Yuck. Just...yuck.

    You know, one might as well ask, "Does the Bible say Christians should love everyone?" The answer is no! In fact, we are told to hate people, including father, mother, etc.

  2. No, we are not supposed to hate. However, just because one should love everyone doesn't mean one has to like them. There is a difference.

  3. Larry says we are not supposed to hate, but in fact his statement is a direct contradiction of Jesus Christ's own words! Jesus is quite plain and direct on this point - I'm sure I don't need to quote the scripture.

    Whom should I believe, Jesus or Larry?

  4. Skeptic, as you well know, the scripture you are referring to is a mistranslation. Please do not insult our intelligence. Jesus and I are on the same page.

    Do you think God despised Esau? That would be the English understanding.

  5. Larry, who is insulting whose intelligence? The verse is Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". I looked on line at many different versions and almost all say HATE. King James, NIV, Revised Standard version, etc., etc. Each version was translated by teams of dozens if not hundreds of linguistic experts and they agreed the best word to use was HATE.

    So, what proof do you have that it's a mistranslation? Because what it says doesn't reconcile with your belief system? Do you claim to be more expert in ancient greek than these teams of translators?

    There are a vast multitude of "difficult" scriptures like this in the bible. I take them to mean what they say. If you claim they mean something different from what they say, the burden is upon you to prove it. "It's a mistranslation" is, frankly, quite lame.

  6. Larry asks "Do you think God despised Esau? That would be the English understanding."

    Well, Larry, that's what your bible says.

    But, to answer your question directly, no, I don't think God despised Esau. I don't think the incident ever happened, and there probably never was this man called "Esau". Although, of course, it is possible a man named Esau did actually live way back when once upon a time. But if there ever was an "Esau", we can be sure the folklore stories made up about him and changed many times over the years bear little resemblance to anything he actually did in his life.

  7. Skeptic, I am well aware that you were originally referring to Luke 14:26. I just couldn't believe you were serious, but I guess I was wrong.

    So Jesus insists that to follow Him, I must "hate" my wife?


  8. Larry,

    It seems you and I both agree this particular verse doesn't make sense. A god-man would presumably not tell his followers to hate their families. But the bible plainly says he did!

    Where we don't agree is what conclusion this leads us to. You conclude that the bible must not mean what it says. God couldn't have meant that. It must be mistranslated. Or something.

    I conclude that the bible is not God-inspired. Not just based on this verse, but on hundreds like it. It just doesn't figure that a loving God would inspire such writings. At least not to me.

  9. Skeptic, it doesn't "plainly" say that at all! It merely means that one's cares for the world, the people in the world, and even one's closest family members, must be subordinate to one's love for God and Jesus Christ.

    Are we truly able to achieve this in this life? Well, we can try. We certainly cannot do it without God's help.

    This is why Jesus was so hard on Peter in John 21:15-19. But, He didn't tell him to go get a divorce!

  10. Larry, the anonymous author of the book we now call Luke quoted Jesus as saying we need to hate our father, mother, wife, children, brothers and sister. If he meant "love less" he should have written that! He chose to write "hate".

    If in fact the anonymous author of "Luke" was inspired to write this by God, wouldn't an all-powerful God know how to communicate clearly and make sure his words get translated correctly? God too must have intended to write "hate".

    You assert that "It merely means that one's cares for the world, the people in the world, and even one's closest family members, must be subordinate to one's love for God and Jesus Christ". This is just your opinion.

    The bible says "hate". Why do you suppose the anonymous author was inspired by God to write "hate" if he meant "love less"?

  11. ...the scripture you are referring to is a mistranslation...

    I thought "The Church" had abandoned that particular tenet of Armstrongism, Larry. I will ask you again (for which I have yet to receive a direct answer: Are you sure you're a member of Grace Communion International? Because if you are, "The Church" has obviously NOT been "transformed" AT ALL, let alone "transformed by TRUTH".

    Just ask Ted Johnston: The New Testament is the infallible, inerrant word of Gawd: It CAN'T be "mistranlated", and is no longer the "Bible jigsaw" that Herbie had us all believing in.

    You still have a framed, signed, photo of Herbie on your kitchen wall, don't you, Larry?

  12. "This is why Jesus was so hard on Peter in John 21:15-19. But, He didn't tell him to go get a divorce!"

    We only have the author who wrote "John's" word on that, Larry; and, in the mythologies, Peter wasn't even married!

  13. This thread is now most definitely closed.